Date of Rig Veda

Date of Rig veda has always been controversial as it is the oldest surviving literary work. Generally it is put at 1900BC. Let us see how it came to that date and how experts differ on that date.

Max Muller
Max Muller assigned the period 1500 BCE to 500 BCE for Rigveda Samhita. One of the reasons given is that beginnings of human kind cannot be earlier to 4000 B.C.E. Muller took particular care to ensure that the hypothetical Aryan invasion took place after the Biblical flood and he arbitrarily assigned a date of 1200 B.C to the Rig Veda, which is considered as the oldest among the four Vedas. Since the evidence was flimsy, he recanted his earlier assignment near the end of his life

Aryan Invasion theory
This Aryan invasion theory was proposed by the British archaeologist Wheeler around the early part of the twentieth century. According to this theory, all the Vedas were not composed in India. They were composed by members of tribes, the so called Aryans, who invaded India from the Northwest, destroyed the old civilisation in the Indus Valley, supposedly Dravidian, and drove out these original inhabitants to the south of India and other parts. The ruins of this early Indus Valley civilisation dated 3000 BCE to 7000BCE or earlier. By this theory the date of Rig Veda is before 3000BC. All the modern archaeologists like Shaffer declare that there is no archaeological evidence for such an invasion; the invasion is a myth propagated by historians.

Avesta and Rig Veda
It lookslike avestan and vedas are not related , unnecesarily told they are related to create confusion.
According to Thapar, the date of Avesta has been controversial, but a mid-second millennium date is now being accepted. Thapar considers the the Hittite-Mittani treaty as more archaic than the Sanskrit of Rig-Veda and hence dates Rig-Veda to be of a date closer to the language and concept of Avesta.
Georg Fuerstein, Subhash Kak and David Frawley dismiss the dates suggested by Thapar, A. L. Basham and Max Muller. According to them, the Rig Veda mentions the river Saraswati which disappeared in 1900 BCE and so it has to be at least eight centuries older than the Max Muller's arbitrary date of 1200 BC. Vedic literature is considered older than Avestan literature by 500 - 1000 years though the dating of both is speculative.
The Mittani Indo-Aryan language is considered older than Vedic or Avestan because it has aika instead of eka. Vedic is supposed to to have merged ai to e and hence is considered younger. But if you take the word for seven in Mittani - satta, it is considered to be much later than Vedic. So some folks believe that this dating based on selectively chosen words cannot be trusted fully.
If you look at the Avestan and Vedic language you see that 'h' in one language has been renamed as 's' in another. There are people like Rajesh Kochchar and Romila Thapar who believe that the Vedic people migrated from the Haraxvati (Saraswati) region in Afghanistan and not the mythical Saraswati flowing underground through Rajasthan. It seems this replacing 's' with 'h' is prevalent in some parts of Rajasthan and Assam even today. One point of view is that it is not possible to find which one came first based on language traits.

Saraswati
The Sarasvati described in Rigveda is a massive river, located between Yamuna and Shutadrī (Sutlej) flowing into the ocean. The satellite studies indicate this river as completely dried up by the date 1750 BCE. The Satellite study cannot refer to the Sarasvati (Haraquiti) river in Afghanistan since it is a small river that dries up in the desert. Thus the lower bound for the Vedic civilisation is 1750 BCE. It is more ancient than this date because Rigveda does not mention any desert; it is mentioned in the Brāhmaņa books - Shatapatha Brāhmaņa - which is at least 500-1000 years later than Rigveda Samhita.

Mathematics
The knowledge of mathematics in Rigveda and related texts is another important evidence. Rigveda not only mentions the decimal number system for integers but also the infinity. It mentions in detail the spoked wheel with arbitrary number of spokes (1.164.13,14,48). Clearly such verses would imply that these authors knew the associated mathematical properties of circle and square. The algorithm for circling the square needed for making the spoked wheel is given in the Baudhāyana Shulba Sūtra which is the oldest of the Shulba Sūtrās, ancient mathematical texts dealing with the methods for the construction of altars needed in Vedic rituals and other related mathematical topics. These books are later than the Rigveda Samhita. Even though Dutta made a detailed study of these books around 1930 and showed that the theorem attributed to Pythogoras is contained in these books in a more general form, the western indologists like Keith (or Whitney earlier) did not pay much attention since they were convinced, without any proof, that all the sciences in ancient India - mathematics, astronomy etc., were borrowed from Greeks or Egyptians. It was in 1962 that the American mathematician Seidenberg showed that, “the elements of ancient geometry found in Egypt and Babylonia stem from a ritual system of the kind found in Shulba Sūtrās.” The Shulba Sūtrās contain the algorithm for building the pyramid shaped funeral altar (smashāņa chit). Recall that the Egyptian pyramids are used as tombs for the dead. There is no ancient Egyptian literature for the detailed construction of these pyramids. Hence it is more than likely that their source is the Shulba Sūtrās. This piece of evidence fixes the date for the Baudhāyana Shulba Sūtra which gives a lower bound date for Rigveda.

Astronomy
Rigveda and all other ancient books contain several statements of astronomical significance like the position of Sun in the Zodiac on the two equinoxes, vernal or spring equinox and autumn equinox. Indian Astronomy is based on sidereal Zodiac. The Zodiac is divided into 27 roughly equal segments, all are measuring 130 20' of arc. The seventh mandala of the Rigveda records the vernal equinox in Mrigashira Constellation pointing to a date around 4000 BCE - a fact noted by Jacobi and Tilak. Again several Shulba Sūtrās declare that a pole star is visible. Since a visible pole star occurs only at certain epochs, such a citation gives a normal range of dates for that event. The astronomical dates put the dates before 4000BC.

Silver & Cotton
Again Rigveda does not mention either silver or cotton. Since the date of cotton is well established, again we get a lower bound on the Rig Vedic date.

Sages
Rigveda repeatedly refers to ancient sages and modern sages. The age associated with these ancient sages can be called as the high Rig Vedic period which is declared to be 3100 BCE or early. This period 3700-3800 BCE is the closing of the Rig Vedic age, especially the Mandalas seven and third associated with the sages Vasişhţa and Vishvāmitra. The Shulba Sūtrā texts of Baudhāyana, Ashvalāyana etc., can be dated 3100-2000 BCE; 1900 BCE is the drying up of Sarasvati and the end of Vedic age.

Iron Age
There is no mention of Iron in Rig veda , As the iron age starts before 12th century BC. The dates have to much earlier than that. Vedic term "ayas", interpreted as iron. 'Ayas' in other Indo- European languages like Latin or German usually means copper, bronze or ore generally, not specially iron. There is no reason to insist that in such earlier Vedic times, 'ayas' meant iron, particularly since other metals are not mentioned in the 'Rig Veda' (except gold that is much more commonly referred to than ayas). Moreover, the 'Atharva Veda' and 'Yajur Veda' speak of different colors of 'ayas'(such as red & black), showing that it was a generic term. Hence it is clear that 'ayas' generally meant metal and not specifically iron. Moreover, the enemies of the Vedic people in the 'Rig Veda' also use ayas, even for making their cities, as do the Vedic people themselves. Hence there is nothing in Vedic literture to show that either the Vedic culture was an ironbased culture or that there enemies were not.


Indus Valley Civilization.
Bhagwan Singh, an avid writer on the Indus Valley civilisation, sees the entire Harappan ecology in the Rig Veda. He chides those who have been "using both their brains and chair to save the Vedic Aryans from the Harappan authorship". "Now we have a continuous history of the Indian continent from 7000 BC. But isn't it ironical that we couldn't identify any of the archaeological cultures with literary cultures?" asks an archaeologist who does not want to be identified. He has no doubt that the Rig Vedic Aryans were the authors of the Harappan civilisation.

52 comments:

  1. Wow!! Great set of articles that you have here!! Keep up the good work!

    Was wondering if I could carry some of your articles on Drishtikone.com? I am sure more readers could benefit from your scholarship!

    Please let me know at drishtikone dot mail @gmail dot com

    thanks,
    desh

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  2. Please remember that Rg Veda is not the oldest literary work. Sumerian Gilgamesh is about a thousand years older. Rg Veda is the oldest literary work from the Indian subcontinent.

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    1. Sumerian Gilgamesh is older only if you accept AIT and assume Rig Veda as 1900 to 2000 BC. That would be a circular argument. Archeoastronomical evidence suggests from 6500 BC to400 BC as the date of composition of Risgveda. Then Sarasvati is the know in Rigveda much prior to they knowing Sindhu. (3) The Rigveda does not know of brick (ishtika) but Indus valley knows of it. SO Rigveda is older than Harrapa. It was written in East as they know of Saraswati and not Sindhu in earlier portions. Sarsvati is a measure river when Sarasvati is written. It dries up around 2000 BC. So Rigveda is much earlier to Indus valley civilization. IN Mahabharata Sarasvati is in the beginning stages of drying. Hence Mahabharata is also prior to 2000 BC. That alone takes Veda prior to 3000 BC.

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    2. Periannan; your this statement is based on the European chronology of Rigveda, and since that is being disputed your argument would be like, it is true because it is true.

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    3. The Rig Veda as a written document exists as a mature phase of sanskrit- characters have specific sounds associated & rules of language are followed.This being said the period known as Shruthi [that which is heard] has to considered as well as the root languange.A recent study shows the Brahmins of Kerala reciting vedic mantras which have bird sounds as part of it therefore it would appear that the Shruthi phase has retained some primary linguistic sounds that are not presented in the Smrithi phase.Hence the mature Smrithi Rg Veda is the result of much earlier development in language than Western scholars would like to believe

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  3. Dear Chandra

    Date of Mahabharatha events is agreed by all to be 3100BC that itself puts it beyond Giglamesh and sumerians(2700BC), Rig veda is the oldest among vedas and older than upanishad and epics like Ramayana and Mahabharta. You can calculate dates based on that.

    If You are claiming sumerian heritage please follow the link: http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/03/myth-of-sumerian-language-legacy.html

    And more on how historians arrived at indian dates follow

    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/01/myths-of-india-by-indologists.html

    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2009/07/did-megasthenes-meet-chandragupta.html

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  4. These are good articles, but our mindset has been altered so radically, that we are ashamed to contradict the Occidental for fear of Ridicule. I have presentation on the Indic Intellectual tradition that can be viewed on scribd. There are several astronomic markers that indicate that terminus ante quem date (the latest possible date) for the oral composition of the Rg is 4000 BCE. The script came shortly thereafter. There are cuneiform documents that date back to 3400 BCE. There is ample evidence that the Vedas are of great antiquity. But the Occidental has fallen into this trap of thinking that the Vedas are the ramblings of a pastoral nomads amnd they refuse to admit the possibiliy of a vedic episteme. Tjhey have built themselves a gulag from which their mind cannot escape

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    1. Good analysis and you have stated a brutal truth, we trust Western scholars even more than Indian Vedic scholars. Despite the fact that the West has vested interests and blatantly and repeatedly mistranslated and misinterpreted our Vedic Sanskrit to make it fit into their petty agenda of racial superiority.

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  5. Hi Kaushal
    The Below article will also interestting to you

    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/01/myth-of-invasion-rig-veda-aryans.html

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  6. Absolutely great , in fact any one who understands India, to be precise Bharat, will easily grasp the continuity of Indian civilisation. In fact when I read in school about Aryan Invasion theory, it seemed strange to me. I am same as a south indian rather than european.
    Further great learned people like B R Ambedkar , Auribndo Ghosh, Vivekananda etc were of the opinion that the AIT is rubbish . Today when I am gven to understand that MAX muller has puzzle of Chriatian belief to fit indian history in within 4000BCE, subsequent exploitation by British for North and South divide. The reason OF AIT being injected by the British in Indian minds is clear.

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  7. Cotton finds mention in the earliest Sutras but is absent from the Vedas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas. Hence, if the Rigvedic people came after the Harappans, how can they be ignorant of cotton? Similarly, rice is not known to the Rigveda and the Avesta, while it is present in several Harappan sites within and outside the Indus valley. Therefore, the Rigveda has to precede the Harappan Culture. Silver is known from 4000 BC only, and is not found in this Veda, which must therefore antedate it.
    Harappan seals with evidence of spoked shells are dated to 1960 BC far before the supposed invasion which Wheeler claims to have introduced the chariot and spoked wheel; evidence of equine remains is available dated before 2000 BC and even at Hallur in Karnataka c. 1800-1500 BC.

    Therefore, the Aryans whom Asko Parpola and Wheeler would like to immigrate to India c.1600-1400 BC cannot have introduced the horse in the Deccan centuries before their arrival! If the horse is a conclusive sign of Aryan presence, then it is in India long before the Harappan Civilization in Neolithic sites. Moreover, a terracotta horse-like figurine with a saddle on its back has been found in Balu in the Harappan urban phase.

    Sethna also provides evidence, going back to much before the second millennium BC of heavy flooding of Harappan settalements, with five floods found in Mohenjo Daro itself, each lasting for several decades. Considerable rise in the coast-line of the Arabian Sea is also a geological fact he cites. Hence there is no need to posit an invading Aryan horde to demolish imaginary dams where natural forces are at work. Further, points out Sethna, if invasion came from the north, why is it southern Mohenjo Daro instead of northern Harappan sites that shows noticeable decline in material prosperity? The coup de grace is administered with evidence from undersea excavations at Dwaraka, dating the submergence to c. 1400 BC, tallying with statements in the Mahabharata and the Harivamsa. If the Kurukshetra war occurred around this time, surely the period of the Rig Veda would have to be considerably anterior to it and by no means c. 1500 BC. How could the Aryans invade just a couple of centuries before the great war? Necessarily, therefore, the Rig Veda precedes the Harappa Culture that ended around the middle of the second millennium BC.

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    1. Rigveda has References to Rice?
      http://asianagrihistory.org/yl-Nene%20-Rigveda-has-%20reference-to-%20Rice.pdf

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    2. Main Problem is we are arguing with ideas promoted by Western scholars.

      In this case Rice is native to India. Indus valley sites have rice.

      The Argument provided by western Scholars is Rice is not known to Rig Veda people. So they came from Outside. Now our argument is based on this theory provided by Western Scholars. My point even if you take that as true for argument, still Aryan Invasion theory does not have chance. Around 4000BC rice is already found in Indus Valley. How can it be not around 1500BC proposed by western Scholars.

      Any native culture will not give one word to describe that is found in abundance in the area. There will be many names to describe the same object.
      For Example Gold is found in Abundance in Karnataka
      Now how many Names does Gold have in Kannada
      Chinna
      Bangara
      Svarna
      Suvarna
      Kanaka
      Hema
      honnu
      honnina
      Pon
      to Name a few.

      The same theory here, why should rice have single name in vast India. It can have so many names. The Argument that all the rig veda names should have originated in Indo-European words is false.

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  8. This is simply nice to see an unbiased opinion on Rig Vedic date. "Ayas" is a general term for metal. Also, dried river Saraswati , is mentioned inumerable times in Rig veda this itself will put the Rig vedic date at 1900 B.C. All in other vedic literature, the hermitages of sages on the banks of River Saraswati are mentioned and one of the sages is Vyasa whose hermitage is mentioned on the banks of River Saraswati and he is credited to divide the single veda into 4 vedas. it is for dubious reasons that Indologists reject these events descirbed in R.V and speculate an arbitrary date without any knowledge.

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  9. Max muller who was a german was hired by the east india company to erase the history of India, which includes the Manipulated history by the Muslims invadors, how they destroyed many temples of Sanatan dharma, and how they changed Tajo Mahalay into Taj Mahal. Also Max muller created fake Aryan invastion theory, and termed Sanskrit as Indo - Aryan, later the fake aryan invasion theory was used by Hitler to commit Genocide, who also used the swastika and flipped the symbol in more ways than one.
    About Max muller:--
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/max-mueller-was-a-swindler-william-jones-was-a-fraud/

    About Manipulated monuments :--

    http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm

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  10. Still,
    I am not sure of Taj Mahal being Temple, It is a place where Mumtaj is buried.

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  11. Read the links before making a comment like " Still,
    I am not sure of Taj Mahal being Temple, It is a place where Mumtaj is buried."

    My links shows many inconsistencies, the biggest clue about Taj mahal is the pinnacle, it is a trident/ trishool , and not a crecent star. There are many pictures in the links for you to see. So before saying it was made by the mughals, look at the links first.

    You will see how the destroyers call themselves creators now.

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  12. did my research at sacred texts.com and figured max mueller was the ace, but glad to have stumbled upon your site, i always felt, in the back of my mind, that the date of the rig veda was 4,000 b.c.--for some reason. what;ss the significance of the aryan invasion concept?

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  13. Aryan Invasion theory follow the articles
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/04/myth-of-aryan-invasion-of-india.html

    Location
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/01/myth-of-invasion-rig-veda-aryans.html

    Saraswathi river
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/saraswathi-river-myth-and-reality.html

    Significance of Aryan Invasion theory. Look into whole web of theories
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/01/myths-of-india-by-indologists.html

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  14. 1. Aryan invasion(in india) also suggests that Aryans might have migrated to India from nortwest. This doesn't mean nobody was there at the time of migration. So can be called as a invasion.

    2: There is a strong evidence in the Rigveda for the migration from north west. (The geograpical information given in Rigveda changes from the begining of the Book to the end in a sequence supporting the migration from the nortwest.

    3.The migration derived from the rig veda cannot be date back before Indus valley civilization. Because then it should be dated before B.C. 7000. The language spoken by the present people at that place is a Indo-Aryan(Sanskrit) derived language. So if it is dated back before B.C.7000. The period of Sanskrit derived language speaking people will become B.C.7000 to till date. But the Indus people (B.C.7000 - B.C.1300) had spoken a language which is almost clueless till date. This suggests there would not be any overlap in time. This clearly shows the mistake in the prediction of any one of the date. Carbon aging calculations proves the indus valley period. So the mistake would only happen in the date of the migration. It can only be dated back before and cannot be date back before indus valley civilization. (From that it is confirmed that Rigveda is after Indus valley civilization. I am putting forward the further points on the basis of this fact).

    4. Indus valley civilization itself has crossed the entire Bronze age (3300 - 1300 BCE, source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization). If the migration happened after the indus valley civilization as mentioned in point 3, Rigveda can not be dated back before B.C 1300.

    5. There are several evidence which suggests the period of indus valley and the Rigveda cannot be overlapped. (A)There is no reference in rigveda about the bigcities or importan places found in Indus valley. (B)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the Indus peoples architectural skills. (C)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the tubed drainage found in Indus valley. (D)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the. (E) There is no evidence in Rigveda about water resorvoir or ponds found in Indus valley. (D) There is no evidence in Rigveda about water Urn barials found in Indus valley.

    6. The Rigveda people might not even know about Indus valley as the civilization had been destroyed without a trace. This suggest the migration could happen long after the Indus valley civilization.

    7. The Rigvedic people might not even know about cottons. This could happen if they had an alternate source.

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  15. If you want to to Indus valley civilization to be 20000 BC according to Wiki, I will make it , I just need ten people to vote for me. That is the credibility of WIKI. So don't bring Wiki as evidence.

    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2008/01/myth-of-invasion-rig-veda-aryans.html , just follow the link for migration of the Rig veda people, Dont spread lies Mark Larks. We have enough lies already by Westerners.

    Carbon dating prove the age of Indus valley to be before 2000BC because Saraswathi river died before 1850BC. So no artifacts after that period. Again dont spread lies.

    Indus valley is not the period of Rig Veda. Rig Veda predates Indus valley, so no reference to Indus valley in Rig veda. However the geography of Rig veda is India only. Again dont spread lies Mark Larks.

    You are searching for Evidence, there is plenty to see the Rig veda is in India. Just see the flora and Fauna, it can only be India no other place.

    Rig Veda refers to Ganges Dolphins, which are found in only in Ganges. Ganges Dolphins are unique they have peculiar characteristics, so cannot be confused with other dolphins. So don't try to steal Indian heritage marks larks.

    Why don't you got Myth of Aryan Invasion first
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/04/myth-of-aryan-invasion-of-india.html

    then Saraswathi river
    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/saraswathi-river-myth-and-reality.html

    before coming to this article.

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  16. Kanniyakumar,
    If you are not very rational person, atleast You should be proud of our heritage and not spread lies.

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  17. Sanatan Dharma is the oldest culture in the world, and there was a time when it was spread throughout the world. People can find swastika in every culture like the American Indians, Greece, troy, Italy, Russia and many other countries have this symbol. Look at the 108 symbols of god in Sanatan Dharma and their origin. Things will become very clear about the origin of humanity in this world. It is time to free ourselves from the lies and deception spread throughout the world about our culture.

    Dont forget, even today in Sanskrit and Hindi the words for Divorce and any other abusive words do not exist. Yet it contains words like Yantra ( machine) and Vimana ( air-craft), which existed far before the western civilization constructed aircraft themselves.

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  18. In a letter of 1866 A.D. Max Muller writes to his wife:
    'This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, .....it is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has spring from it during the last three thousand years.

    You can see the motive behind Muller writings about Vedas

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  19. The Aryan invasion is a holy grail which cannot be done away with without which India cannot exist. In the absence of this theory the entire political spectrum from nehruvian secularist, comrades and sangh parivar Asokan and Akbarian secularism will become irrelevant. I have read about all ancient culture. Except Aryans of India Iberians Nordic, Myoneans, Kassites, Hittites everybody was more than three thousand years old and having contact with Middle East and Egypt. Alas poor Indian Aryans! They did not have contact with any of their brethren. They have been cursed to forget their alphabet, their intimate contact with middle east became vagabonds but blessed with chariots and capacity to make prayers only to loot and destroy without kings unlike their other cousins. Probably providence would have made them all of a sudden vagabonds but granted a refined language and chariots only to those people who moved to India. They were forbidden to enter China and were severly instructed to have the routes which can only be identified later by M/S Maxmuler & co., Such was greatness of those Aryans who proceeded to India with clear instructions that they should forget their alphabet their contact with mideast become ruthless vagabonds with chariot follow the route unknown to others but only to later day indologists! Hail to Aryan and to the political spectrum of india born out of it! Vishwamburia

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  20. Ha Ha
    Very good Comment

    Hitties, Mittanis , Kassites and Sumerians are migrants from India, who conquered and ruled Middle east.

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  21. PART II The whole problem lies with the Westerners barring Americans who are completely prejudiced against ancient culture of Norse, Iberians, Mittanis etc. They are biased towards Zionist/Semitic/GreacoRomanic culture. The Indo Aryan theory has been propagated only to denigrade the above culture. If anyone reads individually the ancient culture of Sumerians, Phonecians, elamites, Hittites, Kassites, Mittanis, Lydians, Medians, Chaldeans, Akkadians every culture is well defined and great and connected. Only Sumerians did not belong to middle east. The entire stretch from the edge of Balkans to the east Iran was considered to be a unified area upto Beginning of Ottoman Empire. However the westerners degraded all other races except Zionist/Semitic/Greako Roman races as Barbaraians and Pagans. How can the above races entering into recorded agreements, having Kings entering into marriages with Egyptians Pharaos be considered as vagabonds? It is an irony that Indo Aryans did not have any contact with any of these races during the long sojourn from CaucusIan Steppes to Indus valley. The historians convenietly hide the fact that there is no reference directly to India. The earliest reference is by Herodotus linking with Hercules and Baccus vaguely. The Asokan edicts in Afghanistan/Bactria is trilingual i.e. Prakrit/Greek/Aramaic. Thus while in the case of other races there is continuity in the case of Indo Aryans how is it that there is complete discontinuity? It is as if all of a sudden the Indo Aryans of Caucusian regions suddenly woke up in 1700BC flied to khyber pass along with chariots without encounter in the middle? Another most fanciful event is that on entering Khyber pass they began to recite poems in the most refined language of that age!HA!HA!

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  22. Romila Thapar who finds a mention here in the context of “Avestan” language and attempted to juggle period, is a crypto xian and her credentials are suspect

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  23. I fully agreed with max mooler and romola thapers viws that aryans invaded india,and detroyed indus valley civilization cities (too much description come in rigveda).in ancient india the language of general people was prakrit or pali thats word we use also at present.LIKE hand(HATTH),Mother in law (sassu) village (GAAM)etc.many of words of PARSI are same as BRAMINS sanskrit.BOTh worship the holy FIRE>

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  24. How do you know what language Indus valley people spoke ?

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  25. I am pursuing the History... The theories the texts which is provided, available are mostly polluted and influenced by the writers's intention , and with what they want to say or pretend... the sources of study are so puzzled and messed that you can not get true information....Why they don't understand that the History of mankind is not only their religion's, tribes, nation's history... It's history of Each and every Human on this planet..history of origin of the civilization, the history of all languages.. It's history of you and me....
    Here I feel little good.. get some true information . Dhanywaad.

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    1. What are you saying here? Can you be little Specific

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  26. genome studies done recently has established that concept of aryan invasion is totally false and concocted by west. Age & DNA similarities of Bharatvanshis are similar. No caste & no north south concept. Oldest genome on earth are of Bhartiya plate(old time Africa coast was joined with Bhartiya Peninsula)European genome age very young and totally different from Bhartiya genome. West should stop spreading wrong information. There was no invasion of Aryan, Aryans are aboriginal of Bhartiya sub continent. Dr Swami Gyananand

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  27. Just read the entire comments here. Interesting. However instead of disagreeing of theories let us try a broader perspective. I happened to read for 3 - 5 every day for 3 months (under guidance of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) 9th and 10th mandala. When you do that you get a very profound feeling ... and understanding of the underlying "double story". There are literally thousands of references to "invasions" ... but not very specific. And given the very spiritual message you get from listening to the hymns you can't help getting the idea that some is not just a juice from a plant, and that invaders and devils are not in the material world. You get the unique feeling that this is all about your mind and enlightenment of your Soul.
    Of course it is interesting how old the Veda's really are, but again it is known with a high degree of certainty that before the Rig Veda was written down it was recited in separate portions by Brahmins, in a very conservative manner. Maharishi pointed out at lectures I attended that the Rig Veda was more than 10.000y old. He never seemed to be too interested in the age only in the content.
    From my perspective, having studied all the major religions and philosophical approaches to life in all parts of the world, the only reasonable "theory" (yes, I am a scientist) that makes sense is the following. India (or the greater Indian area), must have been the first place on this planet where people started to reflect, develop religions and philosophy ... and write it down. There are so many indications of that. Some of which have been mentioned here. I want to add another one. If you want to read all "ancient scriptures" (and there is never a substitute for knowing the source material yourself) ... then you can cover the entire texts of Christianity, Islam, Egypt, Aristotle (Plato), Indian Philosophy ... you can cover all of this in a couple of months! But reading the entire Indian library (all the Hindu scriptures, Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism) ... nobody can do that in a lifetime, there are more than 100.000 volumes. And a lot of it is really old. So although this is very much a quantitative consideration, I think it is significant.
    In any case Brothers and Sisters here, let us rather "join forces", and try to inspire more people to be interested in Spiritual Values ... this Earth needs it so badly.
    I wish you all a happy day.

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    1. Well I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
      As we are talking about date of Vedas. Let us stick to it. The dates suggest before 12000BC in Indian Sources. But I have struck to Western sources.

      Regarding Acquiring knowledge, Let me Quote from another blog http://www.vedasudhe.com/

      Ajyestaso akanistasa he ete sambrataro soubhagaya|

      Yuva pita svapa rudra esam sudugha prusnhih sudina marudhbhayah


      Meaning. These men are without superiors, without inferiors, they are mutually brothers, they march onwards for prosperity. The eternal youthful, the soul protecting grief alleviating God is their father, the richly feeding; the mother earth produces happy days for these mortals.

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    2. You may not be the only one. I too have studies the 10th Mandala, and you must remember that Prof KAzanas the sanskritist form Canada has also read whole of Rigveda in detail There are instances of battles, but not of invasions. The battles are fought on Ravi and these battles have moved westward, as descendants of SudAsa fight frther battles her westward rivers. Until his late descendent (whose name i forget) fight it near Afghanistan. So the sequence of battles is moving from Ravi towards the west. There are no Wars mentioned near Yamunas in these two mandalas. So your imagination of invasions is only in you head. The portions of Avesta that overlap with Rigveda are later portions of Rigveda. The earlier portion os Rigveda are no similarity with Avesta, telling you that Persians and Indians did not separate in Persia or in more north western lands, but in India. When most of the Rigveda was complete. If you know that Rigveda is more than 10,000 year old, then you must also know that it was entirely written in India. So if there are any invasions if must be much older than 8000 BC. But there are no evidence of any movement in to India in 8000 BC. In fact even the AIT people will say it happened in 1500 BC. And that falls flat on its face f you compare the material culture of Indus valley Vs the material culture known to Rigveda. That alone tells you that Rigveda must be older than Indus valley and all written in India.

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  28. The Indus civilization can not be older than rigvedic civilization. The arguments are as follows:-
    1. Rigvedic people were lived in villages while Indus people lived in well planned cities. I don't think that development of civilization becomes in reverse direction and/or Aryan people were too fool to adopt the new technologies and amenities.
    2. The geography mentioned in rigveda is exactly same as of north-western india while the Indus civilization was spread over north to central india.
    3. One of the strong argument of European historian is that the vedic people were aware of horses but no evidence obtained in indus valley. At the same time, they says the rigvedic people were not aware of sea even though there are so many times mention of sea. What the height of arbitrayness! They will imagine what ever suits them to serve their purpose.

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  29. There is no such thing as Aryan race.. "Aryan" this term was used by max muller in British india to divide people... the original term is Arya means a noble person/ gentleman. If in behavior, speech, actions, one adheres to principles of vedas – is civilized, affectionate to fellow people, not tempted to commit sins, hygienic, promotes and propagates truth, etc – he or she is an Arya. Again it is not a binary logic, but a continuous function. Dravidian myth was also exposed years ago and every other aryan invasion theory Rig Veda does not give even a shred of evidence of any invasion or migration to have taken place from outside or the Rishis of Vedas having been part of expeditions into India from somewhere else. But Indologists and apologists of AIT / IAM use Rig Veda to try to establish their standpoint.the meaing of Dravida is in sanskrit, it loosely means liquid like or watery. The root word for this is Drava in sanskrit this invasion theories are just a hoax nothing more. During the 4th and 3rd centuries BCE Afghanistan and almost all of the subcontinent was conquered by the Maurya Empire. That is Ashok the Great's period.Ascending the throne, Ashoka expanded his empire, from the present-day boundaries and regions of Burma–Bangladesh and the state of Assam in India in the east to the territory of present-day Iran / Persia and Afghanistan in the west; from the Pamir Knots in the north almost to the peninsular of southern India (i.e. Tamilnadu / Andhra pradesh). But later India was divided in small kingdoms.

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  30. There was no Vedic mathematics, The people of that period were leading a pastoral life. They were concerned about agriculture, cows , religious worship and sacrifice to gods. Nobody said anything about Vedic mathematics during the Gupta, Maurya, Mahratta, Vijayanagar and Mughal periods. It was only in the 18th century, after the establishment of colleges and schools by the missionaries and British, fake manuscripts were produced claiming knowledge of mathematics, astronomy, quantum physics and medicine. They came to know about Pythagoras and other scientists from the text books available in colleges. So it was only from 18th century, after Western knowledge was introduced in schools and colleges of Calcutta, these false claims were made.

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    1. Why Give Such Antiquity as 18th century,
      you can very well say
      All Maths, Science, medicine came after Discovery Channel came to India
      All Indian History Came after History Channel came to India

      Rajan Rajiv you have made most Chauvinistic Western Scholars hang their head in Shame. If there is no Scholarly pursuits, Why are western intellectuals stealing and claiming all vedas as their greatest achievement and propose Aryan Invasion Theory.

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    2. You don't know the difference between pastoral and Agricultural life and you are passing judgements

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    3. Rajan Rajiv; You don't seem to read carefully, even the current NCRT books. Even the Secular-left dispensation mentioned of Taxashila Unidversity that was established around 1000 BC and came to an end in about 300-400 AD. The time period of study in this university could be as much as 15 years. What do you think they were teaching there for such a long period. If mathematics came to India from Europeans, why is decimal number system considered to have come from India. Also in Krishna Yajurveda, Rudra Prashna, you see the decimal systems at work, when they give large numbers in powers of 10. Perhaps you are blissfully ignorant of all this. It is Ok to be ignorant, but one does not have to display it shamelessly.

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  31. Hiii .... Sir I m a upsc aspirant from pune, Maharashtra.... Let me tell .... About the latest researches of our great ancient Indian history.... (In the form of books) so I can enrich myself..... And thanks to you sir.... For generating more scientific and rational views... But you plzzz provide the links of archeological evidents also.....

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  32. i think discussing on this of no mean if we say everything was vedic it belongs to all. taking about english peoples perceptions its obvious that they were prejudgemental on all soughts of theories eg even the adam eve theory that stated existance of life on earth has been prooved false sory rubbish. the english authors were more keen in doccumentating for selfish means and not for truth (it seems).

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  33. Kudos to all for bringing out a novel discussion on such a noble topic. I would be grateful to the wonderful people if someone can answer my doubt. My question is : "If Vedic Culture predates the Harappan Culture, why there is a disconnect between the languages of both cultures? I fail to understand that why would Harappans discontinue the usage of an advanced language such as Sanskrit & digress to a primitive symbolic language?"

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    1. The language could still be Sanskrit, but script of the language is separate issue. We don't know what language does script stand for?

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  34. Regarding your comment in Avesta & Rigveda link. I think you must read recent work by Shrikant Talagiri in his work on Avesta and Rigveda comparison. Then you will see that he has a air tight argument of the overlap of Avesta and the late portions of the rigged, in Sapta Sindhy region. He also shows that Dasranjana wars are a common memory between the Rigveda and Avesta.

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  35. Does any one know the details of formation of desert in Rajasthan? As it is not mentioned in Rigveda, which it should have if it was there, then when and how did Desert come about. Another Historian PT Verma, says that desert was created by the receding of Seas. We know that the geology of Rajasthan has fresh water and salt water overlays. Where as Fresh water is from Sarasvati, where does the salt water come from? Any way P T Verma suggests that earlier sea was in the desert and Sarasvati emtied in to tho sSe. In any case the question is how did the desert come about. Was there an extended drought and Rainfall change etc. Any insights or references will be useful.

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  36. Vedic people and the sea:
    https://www.academia.edu/7890167/Rigveda_Indra_and_the_Battle_Across_the_Sea

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  37. Western scholars wrote everything with selfishness. Its time for us to give the truth to the world.

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  38. Hi All, I too have a point to make.
    As per Ramayan and birth date of Lord Rama, described as at least 7 thousand years ago (10th January 5114 BC - as per planetary positions). In the Ramayan, there is mentioning of Rama studying and vedas. Even Hanuman also. According to this, Vedas are much older than 7 thousand years... fullstop.

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